Now just plain Andrew. The former Prince's fall from grace. | The Excerpt Wendy Naugle, USA TODAYDecember 5, 2025 at 10:19 PM 0 On the Friday, December 5, 2025 episode of The Excerpt podcast: On the Friday, December 5, 2025 episode of The Excerpt podcast: As Prince Andrew loses his titles and royal privileges, new questions are rising about accountability, secrecy, and the future of the monarchy. Historian Andrew Lownie joins us to unpack the Epstein files, the palace response, and how this scandal could shape the reigns of both King Charles and Prince William.
- - Now just plain Andrew. The former Prince's fall from grace. | The Excerpt
Wendy Naugle, USA TODAYDecember 5, 2025 at 10:19 PM
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On the Friday, December 5, 2025 episode of The Excerpt podcast: On the Friday, December 5, 2025 episode of The Excerpt podcast: As Prince Andrew loses his titles and royal privileges, new questions are rising about accountability, secrecy, and the future of the monarchy. Historian Andrew Lownie joins us to unpack the Epstein files, the palace response, and how this scandal could shape the reigns of both King Charles and Prince William. USA TODAY's executive editor of entertainment, Wendy Naugle sat down with Lownie to unpack this moment.
Hit play on the player below to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript beneath it. This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text.
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Wendy Naugle:
It was announced one month ago that Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, the man we once all knew as Prince Andrew, would be stripped of his royal titles because of his associations with convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. It marked an incredible fall from grace, but is that truly the end of the controversy that has cast a long shadow on the palace? And what might Andrew's troubles mean for President Donald Trump?
Hello and welcome to USA TODAY's The Excerpt. I'm Wendy Naugle, USA TODAY Executive Editor of Entertainment. Today is Friday, December 5th, 2025.
As part of King Charles' shocking announcement, Andrew will lose his plush housing at the Royal Lodge. On December 1st, the king instructed Andrew's prestigious Order of the Garter and Royal Victorian Order honors to be canceled and annulled, his name erased from the register. But does this erase the stain on the royal family? And can the British monarchy finally move forward with a clean slate?
Here, to help us unpack all of this is Andrew Lownie, a historian and expert on the royal family and the author most recently of Entitled: The Rise and Fall of the House of York. Andrew, thanks so much for joining me today here in the USA TODAY studio.
Andrew Lownie:
Pleasure.
Wendy Naugle:
I wanted to start with where we are right now. The Epstein Files Transparency Act was passed and it will force the DOJ to release documents in this case by December 19th. What do you expect might be revealed in those documents about the former prince?
Andrew Lownie:
Well, we don't know. I understand there is a lot of material on him. I think there's a danger that a lot of material won't be released. The line will be that there's continuing investigation and these files are needed to be used in that investigation. We've already seen quite a few revelations as a result of what's in there, particularly the length of his association with Epstein, the fact that it went on much longer than he claimed. But who knows? I think this is we don't know what we don't know.
I think we have to be slightly cautious about him leaving Royal Lodge. He's not going to leave for about a year, he's been given a year to get out. He's basically digging his heels in to say that he wants to have actually a pretty large house on the Sandringham estate. He wants to have servants there, a driver, a gardener, a housekeeper. So it's not going to be the fall from grace that everyone's assumed.
He also is making the point that he's got a cast iron lease. He doesn't have to go, this is all voluntary. And therefore, he needs to be compensated. He's not going to receive the compensation that he would receive under the repairing lease of the deal because he has rather left the house to go to wrack and ruin. But he will be, I think, holding out for large sums of money to get him out. So what's being said in public and actually what's happening in private are two very different things.
Wendy Naugle:
In your book, you detail how Andrew was photographed with Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell at Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago Country Club in Palm Beach in February of 2000. Andrew and Trump also played some golf. How close do you think the two men were? And could Andrew's ultimate fall from grace impact the president?
Andrew Lownie:
Well, the relationship is good. They have three common interests, women, golf, and making money. And Andrew was actually deputed to take care of Trump when he came in a previous state visit. Trump claims now he doesn't know Andrew is, but there's plenty of evidence to show actually they were very close. And I've done interviews, for example, with diplomats at the New York consulate about their close relationship, the fact that when Trump was developing his golf courses in Scotland, Andrew was very interested.
Trump likes the British royal family, and so we think that he basically kind of made sure that Harry's visa wasn't made public, the visa that would've shown whether he declared drug use or not. And I think in some ways Andrew will be protected as far as Trump can do so.
Wendy Naugle:
Andrew was obviously very close with his mother. He has been well known as her favorite son up until her death. And you cite reporting that in January 2015, three officials put their concerns about Andrew in writing to the queen. Do you think those concerns ever really reached the queen or do you think she was knowingly protecting her son?
Andrew Lownie:
Well, I think the concerns did reach the queen. Often, they were, of course, made to the private secretary. At that time, it was Christopher Geidt. I know from people who've gone to Christopher Geidt that he kind of told them, "Actually, there's no point making these complaints because she's not interested."
And that was one of the problems. Senior diplomats would go and complain about his time as a trade envoy and complaints they'd had from ambassadors. And she just had this complete blind spot, the way Mrs. Thatcher had a blind spot with Mark Thatcher.
But there are plenty of occasions where the palace tried to shut the story down. I suppose the most famous is Amy Robach and ABC Television who had an interview with Jeffrey and wanted to run the story and ABC television backed down after the palace threatened to withdraw access to members of the royal family.
So there was this pressure the whole time. British newspapers had the story years before it broke, but held it back because of palace pressure. I know plenty of stories of people going to the Queen with complaints and being turned away. It's not just isolated incidents.
Wendy Naugle:
King Charles, as we said, formerly stripped the titles from his brother, erased his name. Why do you think it took Charles so long to act? And do you think he helped cover up some of his activities?
Andrew Lownie:
Yes. the royal family had been aware of Andrew's activities for years. Charles actually tried to stop Andrew being appointed the trade envoy in 2001. So they've known this story, they've known the scandal around Epstein for years. So while the queen was showing her support for him, often giving him new honors after he was caught with Epstein. You're talking about the honors that have been taken away from him. Well, they were actually often given to him after the scandal broke, but nothing was done. And I think both the queen and Charles had kind of got their heads in the sand. The belief is that the problem will go away, the news agenda will move on and they can kind of protect him.
And I think William has seen the reputational damage that's been done, that he needs to get ahead of the story. And that's why a month ago or just over a month ago, they took the titles away properly from Andrew. They evicted him from Royal Lodge, in effect as much as they could, because they realized public opinion was demanding something was going to happen.
And it does tie into Trump. There is a sense that the elites have operated in their own interests for too long and people in power need to be held account for their actions.
Wendy Naugle:
You mentioned William. In your book, you write about how both William and Harry did not have particular fondness for their uncle. You alleged that Harry and Andrew once got into a fistfight, which is something Harry has denied. But clearly, there have been tensions for years and tensions with Andrew and William. What do you think the boys knew about Andrew and Epstein and Virginia Giuffre?
Andrew Lownie:
I think certainly, William knows a lot. As the heir to the throne, he would've been briefed. I know he was briefed by the intelligence services. And I know, again, from my research on the Duke of Windsor, I've seen the documents in his files of briefings from the Metropolitan Police or Special Branch. So I don't think there's any doubt that they were aware of what was going on. We can see what William's feelings are towards his uncle just from the Duchess of Kent's funeral where he's kind of trying to ignore him. But I just know from my own research that Andrew's been very rude about William and Catherine, and William hasn't forgotten that.
Wendy Naugle:
I think the American public always hopes to see William and Harry reunite. Do you think that there's any chance that them having this common shared enemy, so to speak, with Andrew might be some olive branch that would bring the boys back together?
Andrew Lownie:
I don't think anything's going to bring them back together. I think they're both very stubborn. I think a lot of things have been said that can't be unsaid. I think one of the interesting ironies of this is that Andrew had actually reached out to Harry after he stripped the titles to see if they could work together against the establishment. So there are all these shifting alliances going on the whole time. So that might suggest that William and Harry could get together, but I think it's very, very unlikely.
Wendy Naugle:
The scandal has also engulfed Sarah Ferguson, the former Dutchess of York. Your book really paints a picture of financial chaos, with her racking up as much as two to four million pounds in debt. You suggest that Andrew or the queen might have paid off those debts. How much taxpayer money do you think has been spent supporting Andrew and Fergie's lifestyle over the years? How does the British public look at the impact of those costs now with all of these allegations coming to light?
Andrew Lownie:
Well, I think the payments for Sarah's debts and the payment to Giuffre came out of private funds, so I don't think that was taxpayer's money. But I think over the years, millions, it'd be difficult to quantify, has been spent on their security, for example, on where Andrew was a trade envoy, taking jets when he could have gone on commercial flights, taking helicopters when he could have gone by car.
I talked to an official in Whitehall last week who complained how the expenses of the trade envoy jumped up as soon as Andrew took the post. And he complained and he was told, "This has to be allowed. We can't say anything. The queen just says it must happen." But impossible to quantify.
One of the problems was Andrew was also taking his daughters on some of these trade trips. And of course, they had attendant security. This was all, of course, to help build their own future business careers and give them useful contacts. There was a lot of Sarah turning up at events when she wasn't invited because he thought it was useful to build up useful business contacts for herself.
So impossible to say, and this is why there needs to be more transparency about royal finances. We what the cost of security is. It's not a national security issue. But I think the palace realize, and when I say the palace, this is the courtiers, realize that if these sums were revealed, there would be a revolt because there is a concern that the royals are not providing value for money. Some, like Princess Anne, work extremely hard. Others are not working very hard in the way that the queen and Prince Philip had this very strong work ethic, and that is affecting their popularity.
Wendy Naugle:
Andrew no longer has palace protection. What does that mean? Can he actually be investigated, charged, even imprisoned? Right now it seems it's hard for them to even kick him out of the Royal Lodge.
Andrew Lownie:
Yes. I think that he has been cut loose because they're worried that charges might be brought against him. They don't want to be associated because of the reputational damage. He was kind of this infected limb was affecting the rest of the body politic.
There are two grounds on which he could be charged and various institutions. One is on the sexual trafficking, which was looked at three times and the Metropolitan Police thought there was nothing to be seen there. But I think there is a strong case, that that case is being made by the former head of royal security, chief prosecution service, and others. Even some of the police forces are saying this needs to be looked at again. So that's the sexual side.
There's also the financial misdemeanors. He's been found, with this leaked email, to have tried to influence a government official, his PPO, his protection officer, to actually get information on Giuffre and smear her. That is an offense under the misconduct in public office, with a life imprisonment as one of the penalties.
There's plenty of evidence, which I delineate in the book, of him taking commissions for work he was doing, which could clearly go way outside his role as a special trade representative. There are lots and lots of court cases where he can't explain monies that were paid to him, which suggests there was money laundering going on and bribes. And even 20 years ago, the National Crime Agency, there were calls by MPs for him to be investigated. So I think in Britain, there are these two strands of the financial, the sexual, and different organizations.
In the States, I understand the FBI have been investigating him. When they actually put the case together on the Ghislaine's trial, they found there was a case to answer for Andrew. And for whatever reason, they didn't pursue that case. I know, talking to people who were involved in putting the case together, that they felt that some of the evidence they'd collected wouldn't be admissible in a British court. And of course, there's the big problem of extradition to the States. We know the problems the Americans have had getting Julian Assange to come to the States from Britain.
So I think he may well be charged. I don't think he's ever going to spend any time in prison. I think rather like Juan Carlos of Spain, he will make a midnight flit to the Middle East. I understand there've been discussions. He's got a palace he's been given in Abu Dhabi. Carlos is in Dubai. But there's been discussions with the king of Bahrain, who's very close to the palace, that he will be taken care of there. And there is no extradition treaty there between Bahrain and Britain.
So he will be taken care of. He's still being protected, I'm afraid, by the British monarchy.
Wendy Naugle:
Those seem like really big allegations. Do you think that the British public has an appetite to see that happen? Are they hungry for that? Or do they feel like him being stripped of his titles and publicly humiliated is going to satisfy them?
Andrew Lownie:
No, I think this has all been driven by public pressure, partly on social media. The press have picked that up, and that's why the story has developed a momentum of its own. I think if the royal family dealt with this problem even a few months ago properly, that momentum wouldn't have built up, but it has now. The public, I don't think are going to be satisfied until he's held accountable and until charges are brought.
The royal family, the last thing they want is a trial with all their secrets washed in public. And this was, of course, why the Paul Burrell trial was shut down years ago. So the easy way out of that problem is to let the thing roll and then to ensure he escapes, but that's not going to play well with the public if there's a sense that the royal family have helped him avoid justice.
Wendy Naugle:
Your book is called Entitled. Andrew grew up so privileged. He was never, it seemed, really checked by anyone until now, really this moment. Now he's simply Mr. Mountbatten-Windsor. Where does the royal family go from here? How damaging has this been to the monarchy?
Andrew Lownie:
Well, I think it's been very damaging because the abdication in 1936 was sorted pretty quickly. David, as he was known, Edward VIII went pretty quietly. George stepped in, it was a pretty smooth transition. But this problem has been running for 20 years with drip drip feed. It suggests that Andrew not only was financially corrupt, but he was allowed to operate like this by the rest of the family. And that doesn't resonate very well with the public.
So I think it's very serious. And unless they have opened themselves up and much more transparent about their finances in particular, then I think they're in real trouble. And I think they realize that. Wider questions were being asked about royal accountability and privilege.
So the things that I've been calling for, and many others, a royal register, more parliamentary scrutiny, the exemptions under the Freedom of Information Act removed, the unsealing of royal wills, all these things would go some way to restoring trust in the institution. And that's what they rely on. There is a bond, a contract, and that's been broken. And if they have nothing to hide, they should be not very worried about this stuff happening.
Wendy Naugle:
Entitled: The Rise and Fall of the House of York is on bookshelves now. Thanks so much, Andrew, for being on The Excerpt.
Andrew Lownie:
Pleasure.
Wendy Naugle:
Thanks to our senior producer, Kaely Monahan, for her production assistance. Our executive producer is Laura Beatty. Let us know what you think of this episode by sending a note to [email protected]. Thanks for listening. Dana Taylor will be back Monday morning with another episode of The Excerpt.
This article originally appeared on USA TODAY: Andrew's ties to convicted sex offender Epstein led to his downfall | The Excerpt
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